W58 Swap Information Writeup

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W58 Swap Information Writeup

Post by sietekk on Tue May 28, 2013 1:38 pm

PURPOSE:
I've done a ton of searching and found the info I need for my X73's W58 auto-to-manual conversion, so I am posting it here for all who need the information that can no longer be accessed from TC.net. Unfortunately, I started buying all the parts for my 1UZ swap before I realized and at the same time that TC.net died, and all the knowledge and information I needed disappeared with it. To help the community who may be in the same situation as me, I'm posting what I've been able to rediscover for manual conversions here for anyone who needs it. Disclaimer: I have not actually installed the transmission into my car yet (still waiting for 1UZ-W58 adapter kit), but I can guarantee this information is all confirmed, or I wouldn't post it. I will start a separate build thread later to detail the atual install with pictures. Finally, this pertains to the USDM Cressidas and parts, because I live in Bumblefuck, Connecticut.

TERMINOLOGY:
1) When you see a number followed by an upper case T such as 33T or 10T, the T means "tooth." For example, 33T means "33 tooth gear" and 10T means "10 tooth gear."
2) DRIVE GEAR (either 10T or 11T) is the gear INSIDE the transmission.
3) DRIVEN GEAR (here, either 33T or 34T) is the gear that is INSERTED INTO the transmission, and the speedo/speedometer cable connects to it.
4) I use speedo and speedometer interchangeably, but you can probably figure that out for yourself. Laughing

APPLICATIONS:
I have an 86 MX73 automatic with the sport package, which came with the 4.10 LSD differential. I have discovered ONLY THE AUTOMATIC W/SPORT PACKAGE CAME WITH THE 4.10 DIFFERENTIAL from researching parts and part numbers for weeks now. The factory 5-speeds DID NOT COME WITH A 4.10 GEARED LSD. If you have evidence to the contrary, do post with the source of your info, but I got this from looking through the EPC for Cressidas and Supras: http://www.toyodiy.com/parts/ (useful for data and part numbers and helped confirmed the 4.10 gearing) and http://www.villagetoyotaparts.com/ (easy to use site with pictures and diagrams). If you have a Cressida with a different differential gear ratio, you can redo my calculations using the websites I site at the end.

TRANSMISSION:

NOTE: THE MKIII SUPRA NON-TURBO W58 IS THE ONLY DIRECT FIT W58 FOR THE CRESSIDA. IT HAS THE CORRECT SHIFTER LOCATION! ALL OTHER W58s -- ESPECIALLY the MKIV and IS300 W58s/W55s -- HAVE DIFFERENT SHIFTER LOCATIONS AND SETUPS! YOU WILL EITHER NEED TO CUT THE TRANS TUNNEL SHIFTER HOLE LARGER OR REPLACE THE SHIFTER, SHIFT LINKAGE, AND/OR THE SHIFTER HOUSING ON THE TOP OF THE TRANSMISSION (WASTE-OF-MONEY-AND-LIFE OPTION). FOR EXAMPLE, THE DIFFERENT SHIFTER LOCATIONS FOR MOST W58s:

THE DIFFERENT SHIFTER LOCATIONS FOR MKIV SUPRA AND IS300 TRANSMISSIONS:


I sourced a W58 from an 86.5 MKIII Supra NON-turbo. The chassis showed signs of bondo and other red flags that the car was worked on as a project before being abandoned to the junk yard. I did not get the VIN either. Therefore, I do not have evidence that this transmission comes with the car, but it is period correct having the 10T driven gear. Earlier MKIII Supras came with W58s having 10T driven gears, but later W58s came with 11T driven gears all due to the various G-series diffs offered in them. You can check this by removing the driven gear your W58 came with and looking at the numbers stamped on the face of the driven gear. FYI: The driven gear is located on the back of the right side of the transmission towards the bottom. It requires a 12mm socket or wrench to remove the small locking plate, but be forewarned that the trans fluid may dump out if you don't drain the transmission first! I haven't found reliable information of what year MKIIIs came with what drive gear, so it's best to just pull out the gear and check. Remember, if you want to swap the internal drive gear, YOU HAVE TO PULL APART THE TRANSMISSION! Only do this if you know what the hell you are doing! However, the gear is easily removed by a clip if you are comfortable opening the transmission case. There's plenty of information of how to do this across many Toyota forums, so I won't cover that here.

SPEEDOMTER GEARING CALCULATIONS:
EDIT: CLICK ON AND READ THESE CELICASUPRA.COM THREADS FIRST:
Link 1: Please read my post here first for important introductory information (this post initiated the process to create this write up)
Link 2: Read this whole thread
Link 3: PAY SPECIAL ATTENTION TO SUPRAFIEND'S POST! THERE'S TWO DIFFERENT GEAR DIAMETERS AS WELL!
Link 4: Read this too, and download his spreadsheet! It appears 100% correct to me, except for the foreign part numbers, which were addressed in Link 3!

The MX73 came stock with 205/60/15 wheels and tires. That means the width is 205mm, the sidewall is 60% of the width, and the rim is 15 inches. Using this as the baseline size, the circumference of the tire is calculated, the number of tire revolutions per mile is found, then the driveshaft revolutions per mile is calculated, and finally the speedometer revolutions per mile is found to give the proper speedometer gearing. I give credit to user Carlos Brown on celcilcasupra.com for this: http://www.celicasupra.com/forums/showthread.php?10668-3-90-and-W58-Speedo-drive-gear-question/page2
The process:
1) Tire diameter for 205/60/15 is: 24.7"
2) Find circumference: 24.7" x 3.1416 = 77.55"
3) Tire revolutions per mile (63,360" in a mile): 63,360" / 77.55" = 817.02
4) Driveshaft revolutions per mile (using 4.10 diff gearing): 817.02 x 4.10 = 3,349.78
5) Speedometer revolutions per mile (1000 speedo per mile to tire revolutions per mile): 3,349.78 / 1000 = 3.35
Therefore, the ideal speedometer gearing is 3.35, which is provided by a 33.5T driven gear and a 10T drive gear (or a 36.85T driven gear for the 11T drive gear, see the SPEEDO GEARING CONCLUSION section). Obviously, there's no such thing as a 33.5T gear, so the ideal driven gearing is either a 33T or 34T driven gear giving either a 3.3 or 3.4 speedometer gear ratio. That's a 1.5% gearing difference; the 33T with give you MINUS 1.5%, but the 34T will give you PLUS 1.5%. Therefore, the 34T gear will give you a speed that is a 1.5% INCREASE OVER THE ACTUAL SPEED of your car.

34T PART INFORMATION:
Since I've had such a hard time finding a 33T driven gear for a W58 10T drive gear, I recommend the 34T driven gear since I know it exists. Plus, the speedometer will read a bit faster to help keep you out of trouble. The part number for the 34T driven gear is 33403-39075. Here's an EPC link: http://www.villagetoyotaparts.com/productSearch.aspx?searchTerm=33403-39075

SPEEDO GEARING CONCLUSION:
If you have an X7 chassis that came as an automatic with a 4.10 LSD or non-LSD differential, and you want to swap in a MKIII W58, make sure the transmission has a 10T driven gear, and find a 34T driven gear. If you have different gearing or wheels/rims, just change the numbers above to find the speedo gear ratio you need (mine is the 3.35 ratio). Remember, to find the gears you need, first calculate the speedometer gearing ratio (again, 3.35 for my application as shown above). Then just cross multiply to get the same gear ratio with different drive or driven gears:
speedo gear ratio = (X driven gear teeth) / (Y drive gear teeth)
therefore,
X driven gear teeth = (speedo gear ratio) x (Y drive gear teeth)
Y drive gear teeth = (X driven gear teeth) / (speedo gear ratio)

PEDAL:
The mid-80's AE86 Corrolla clutch pedal is a DIRECT FIT! You don't even need to change out the automatic, wide-assed brake pedal if you don't want too. You will need to figure out the mounting bolts depending on the clutch master cylinder you use. My NAPA OEM replacement clutch master cylinder has only one bolt to stick through the firewall. This is easily fixed with a trip to the hardware store, and it should be regardless of the bolts your master cylinder comes with. If you go with a different master cylinder, then you will need a different pedal requiring fab work. Please note: YOU WILL PROBABLY NEVER FIND A FACTORY 5-SPEED CRESSIDA PEDAL! Don't even try. I've been looking since 2005, and I've only seen one on sale in the last 8 years. Toyota also stopped manufacturing them, and their warehouses the world over have no more in stock.

SHIFTER:
The MKII Celica Supra shifter fits just find. You can order replacement shifter bushings from Marlin Crawler. Make sure your shifter comes with the rubber boot and plate that attaches to the transmission tunnel. Otherwise, there's a direct hole between the road and your interior. If your car is a DD or driven on the street, seal the whole around the shifter so you don't ruin your interior or cause other issues. The number of available aftermarket short and short-throw shifters of good quality are extremely smalle, and they cost around $300 while being hard to find for some (eg. C's Short Shifter). I'm not sure why there's such a shitty aftermarket for W58 shifters, since the W-series transmissions find themselves in so many different applications. Please post any aftermarket, quality shifters you've found.

SPEEDOMETER CABLE:
You will need a longer speedometer cable. Automatic MX73s came with a shorter cable than factory 5-speeds. A member on here told me he used the MKIII Supra cable, but that cable comes in two pieces. I have only been able to find the bottom piece that connects to the tranmission, so you will need to go to a junk yard, forum, or classified to get the whole thing or at least the top/interior part of the speedo cable. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, feel free to post what cables you have used if different. I can't find much info on this topic.

DRIVESHAFT:
Use the front half of the MKIII Supra's driveshaft, but use the Cressida's carrier bearing and rear half. It would be a good time to replace that bearing anyways if you go this route. The MKII Celica Supra driveshaft is not a direct bolt in. Also, you will either have to remove the differential or move the engine and transmission to install or remove a solid, one-piece driveshaft, but they can be much, much stronger of course. Please note: Just like the factory 5-speed pedal, YOU WILL PROBABLY NEVER FIND A FACTORY 5-SPEED CRESSIDA DRIVESHAFT!

FINAL REMARKS:
The clutch lines, slave cylinder or hydraulic throwout bearing, clutch forks, clutches themselves, etc. are all straight forward. If you can figure out that stuff or what to do, you probably don't have the skills to swap a W58 into your Cressida. If you are going with a 1UZ, these guys are awesome, really informative, and build a great kit at a price cheaper than Quantum Auto (and without their drama you hear about everywhere): http://www.1uzfeswapkit.com/ Other than that, for bellhousings, there's a JZ bellhousing that fits both 2JZ and 1JZ blocks, M-series engine bell housings are interchangeable, and just make sure your starter situation is sorted out. 7M clutch gear and flywheel fit the 5M and 6M. Any other little details I forgot to mention, post below.

Hope that helps, guys!
Mike


Last edited by sietekk on Wed May 29, 2013 11:49 am; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : Adding some more awesomeness!!!)

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Re: W58 Swap Information Writeup

Post by sietekk on Tue May 28, 2013 1:46 pm

Some evidence for the 4.10 differential gear application....
1) Factory Manual Cressida:

http://www.toyodiy.com/parts/p_U_198511_TOYOTA_CRESSIDA_MX73L-XEMGFA_4101.html
2) Factory Automatic Cressida:
http://www.toyodiy.com/parts/p_U_198511_TOYOTA_CRESSIDA_MX73L-XEPGFA_4101.html

One can obviously see the part number and final gear ratio differences between the factory manual and automatic-with-sport-package Cressidas.

Mike

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Re: W58 Swap Information Writeup

Post by sietekk on Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:07 pm

Here's another good read:
http://www.retrotech.co.nz/Tech/Toyota-boxes.php

Lots of info on Toyota gear boxes.

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Re: W58 Swap Information Writeup

Post by MR2_FTW on Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:08 pm

My understanding is that if you want to swap in a manual into an MX72 (wagon) you need to basically have your driveshaft custom lengthened/shortened to make it fit, since the wagons have a one-piece driveshaft. Anybody know the specifics of that?
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Re: W58 Swap Information Writeup

Post by sietekk on Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:31 am

I don't know about the wagon, but if someone definitely does, I'll add it to the writeup.

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Re: W58 Swap Information Writeup

Post by MR2_FTW on Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:59 pm

OK I got my hands on a W58 for my wagon and when it comes time I'll add info here as I discover it. Today I can confirm that the wagon driveshaft splines mate up to the transmission, so you SHOULDN'T need any of the Supra driveshaft.
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Re: W58 Swap Information Writeup

Post by MR2_FTW on Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:37 pm

What master cylinder do you use with the AE86 clutch pedal? MK2 Celica-Supra two-bolt?
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Re: W58 Swap Information Writeup

Post by sietekk on Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:38 pm

I got an X73 specific one from NAPA, but it only has one bolt. I've heard several times the Celica Supra reservoir is the same. If it is two-bolt, it could be a better buy. However, all I need to do is buy a long bolt and a locking nut for the X73 reservoir. Looks like both work just fine, byt the Celica Supra one may negate a trip to the hardware store.

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Re: W58 Swap Information Writeup

Post by MR2_FTW on Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:12 pm

I was just gonna order a two bolt ma60 one off rock auto if it fit.
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Re: W58 Swap Information Writeup

Post by MR2_FTW on Sat Jun 22, 2013 6:59 pm

Another question: what do you do for neutral safety switch? Wire it to a button on the clutch pedal? Also, would that let the clutch disengage the cruise control?
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Re: W58 Swap Information Writeup

Post by sietekk on Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:24 am

I'm not entirely sure about that. The automatics have a switch, so I'm going to wire that to the switch that is attached to the AE86 clutch pedal I have. Beyond that, someone who has experience dealing with this is better to answer the question definitively.

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Re: W58 Swap Information Writeup

Post by kamesama980 on Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:38 am

The car also needs to be in D and NOT P or N (neutral start switch) for cruise to work. I know you don't want to wire D/P/N to the clutch and R to the reverse switch because if they both engage (D and R) the computer gets pissed off. Still haven't figured out how to fix that one on my car since It's been parked while I was at school.
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Re: W58 Swap Information Writeup

Post by R2D2 on Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:39 pm

would these same instructions apply to an x83 too?? I made a post on the x8 forum, but I thought I'd just give it a shot and ask here. hope you all dont mind.Neutral 

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Re: W58 Swap Information Writeup

Post by MR2_FTW on Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:50 pm

Pretty much, except I'd use MK3 Supra clutch pedal and MC on an X8 rather than the MK2 Celica-Supra/AE86 parts you'd use on an X7
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Re: W58 Swap Information Writeup

Post by OkieRA29 on Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:44 pm

My factory 5 speed cressida came with the sport package and a 3.73 LSD I believe it was(IIRC diff was a 303). Sold the car a couple of years ago... (I know, I know, stupid, stupid, stupid!!!) I know in the Celica Supra world, a lot of the P-types came with 4:10s so that is another avenue to search.

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Re: W58 Swap Information Writeup

Post by MR2_FTW on Thu Jul 18, 2013 10:14 pm

OK I'm trying to go over the neutral safety/reverse switch wiring in my head and this is my best guess at this point:



OK so the plug pinouts in the BGB are for the plugs on the transmission (which is gone now). I have copied them and flipped them (the bottom ones) to represent the plugs in the harness that the trans plugs went into.
So essentially my understanding is that to start the car the computer has to think it is in either Neutral (N) or Park (P). In order to make the comp think it is in N or P, pins "B" and "N" in the left-hand plug (Plug 1) must be connected. Simply shorting that connection with a bit of wire should allow you to start and drive the car.
However, now the computer permanently thinks it's in P or N all the time, disabling cruise control. I was thinking that if you ran those connections to the clutch pedal switch so that you have to push the clutch to start the car, and that also allows for cruise control to disable when the clutch is pressed.

Alternatively, you would wire it to a switch in the cabin, you can then toggle that P/N connection on and off. Have one switch position labeled "Start" and one "Cruise". "Start" position would be a complete circuit, tricking the car into thinking it's in P or N, allowing you to start the car. "Cruise" position would be an open circuit, making the computer think it's in D, and allowing the cruise control to work.


Next issue is reverse lights
The plug coming out of the W58 has two wires in it, and I'm GUESSING that the way it works is when you put the trans in reverse, it completes a circuit. So basically all you'd have to do is connect pin C on plug 2 to one pin in the trans plug, and pin R in plug 1 to the other pin in the trans plug.

This is all just me looking at diagrams. What do you guys think? Would this work?
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Re: W58 Swap Information Writeup

Post by sietekk on Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:43 am

I will try it when I do the swap myself. This is great information! Thanks so much for this.

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Re: W58 Swap Information Writeup

Post by MR2_FTW on Fri Aug 16, 2013 12:07 am

What do you do for the trans mount? The MA70 one is not wide enough, and I've tried every orientation and combination with the MX72 crossmember/MX72 trans mount/MA70 trans mount and the holes never line up even though there are a billion threaded holes in the chassis. I think I'm just going to have to slot the holes like crazy in the member.
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Re: W58 Swap Information Writeup

Post by heff on Sun Aug 18, 2013 12:49 am

I've never heard of the stock speedometer cable not working until this new forum. You just route it down and over the transmission in the tunnel and it screws right on. I did it on my first 86 Cressida and then on my second which was an 86 with the sport package. The tranny was from a MKII supra I got on ebay, not sure which year. Try it. It's very simple really. I did lots of research before making the original swap and have never heard of this until now. Don't go wasting your time and money finding a cable you don't need when the stock one will work. As for speed accuracy, every time I ever drove past one of those road signs that tell you how fast you were driving it matched the speed on the speedometer exactly.
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Re: W58 Swap Information Writeup

Post by xyooj on Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:05 am

Great info! Thanks.
btw I actually found some mx73 clutch and brake pedals from club4ag. :p

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Re: W58 Swap Information Writeup

Post by MR2_FTW on Mon Mar 24, 2014 7:29 pm

Yeah I might go back to trying the stock cable. I'm using all MK3 Supra stuff and the "short" cable keeps snapping.
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Re: W58 Swap Information Writeup

Post by heff on Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:39 pm

I just had to replace my speedometer cable that broke. Got one of a MX83. Found out the part number is the same. Toyota doesn't sell them anymore. Anyway, the MX83 auto analog cable is identical to the one on the MX73 and works just fine. MX73s hardly ever show up at the yard here anymore.
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